February 8, 1969
(By some kindness of fate, the recording of the beginning of this conversation was preserved, though Satprem normally erased all those exchanges or the little facts that did not seem to have “historical” interest. For amusement we reproduce here these fragments ….
Today is soup day! Here.
Chicken … a whole lot!
I only give you once a week.
It’s a lot!
This (to Sujata, showing a box) I must show her … Would you like some work?
(Sujata:) Yes, Mother.
Here, I got this yesterday They’re supposed to be special biscuits – of course, I can’t eat, but if you think you can crush a few …
Then I’ll be able to eat them.
Unless you do it after the marrons glacés are over? But marrons glacés can’t be kept indefinitely. You two eat some, don’t you?
You do eat some? Because otherwise they’ll get spoiled.
So do you think you can crush a biscuit? One at a time.
(Satprem:) Not more than one? … Maybe two?
Two will be a lot to eat.
(Sujata:) Or one and a half?
Eating two at one go is a lot for me! One is enough. Do you crush them by hand?
Then you can do one.
If you took some in the afternoon?
It would be a lot in the afternoon ….
Early morning, would it be convenient for you? I take my breakfast at 8:30 in the morning, is it too early?
(Satprem:) She does it at 5 in the morning!
I get up at 4:30.
(Sujata, laughing:) Me too!
So, in the morning. You’ll do like this: one, two, three, four, five days ….
Like that, it doesn’t bother you?
Not at all!
“Bother,” I don’t know, but difficult?
No, no, Mother! I get up early in the morning, it’s quite all right.
They come from Germany – I got them yesterday.
Well! Now to you [Satprem], do you have something?
There are the proofs of the Bulletin.
Oh, we must see them.
This is the Synthesis, then the Questions and Answers: this very long talk [on illness] ….
In this connection, yesterday R. [Auroville’s architect] asked me questions so as to be able to answer people; he asked me if it was necessary to have organization and so on. And then it came, but in such an imperative manner; I replied that organization was discipline in action, and that to live, discipline is quite indispensable. I said that the body’s whole functioning is a discipline, and if there is a part that no longer wants to follow the discipline – out of revolt or incapacity or … for any reason – if it stops following the discipline, you fall ill.
It came so clearly that I told him.
That paper is with R., I’ve asked him to give it to me.21
I have another here, which I am going to show you in a little while.
But the strange thing is that the experience came BEFORE his question, as it always does. In the morning, I had that experience, I was looking … looking at the body’s functioning, and I thought,
“What a mar-vel-ous discipline!” And each thing does its work regularly Naturally, when there is a bad will or a whim, or some incapacity for any reason, and a part stops playing its precise role, poff! you fall ill. It will be for some other time.
Then there is “Apropos,” then the “Notes on the Way” … I’ve wondered, Mother, if for February 21 we couldn’t play a recording of what you said, for instance on the superman consciousness?
Do you think …
Yes, at the Playground they still play old “Questions and Answers.
Do you think it can be useful?
I think it obviously has much more power than …
Than the written thing.
From a personal standpoint, the thing that bothers me is that I ask you questions a few times, so my voice will be there.
That’s no problem!
Yes, but still … I know people would be happy. Spoken by you, it’s immediately more …
Who decides? Nolini?
Oh, no, no! Nobody decides, it’s for you to say if it suits you.
They’ve never asked me …
No, no, except for a few Aphorisms, they’ve never played recent recordings of you-never.
You might ask Nolini what he thinks about it?22
(Satprem shows the last proofs)
Very well, it will do.
No need to sign?
I never write. Now, come here. If you can take all this away (Mother extracts a note from a pile of papers), I have a paper here …. Oh, dear … Ah, here it is. It’s awfully bad, let me warn you, like a ridiculous caricature of what I said ….
Was it noted down or …?
I spoke, and it was F. who wrote it from memory, so you understand, the important words have gone, it’s come down a few …
(Satprem reads:) “In Auroville, people will not earn money; they won’t work to earn money …”
It’s already come down to here (gesture at ground level).
Then, “If one sets up an enterprise, the profit or production from it will go to the town …”
It’s not like that-it’s not like that! No, it’s useless.
“ … Each one will have to provide work for the collectivity according to his possibilities and aspirations-never to get money, but to serve the collectivity. In exchange, each one will receive what he needs to live. Giving everyone the same thing is out of question, everyone will receive what his real nature requires. Of course, that will be very difficult to determine, and there will have to be at the center of Auroville a gathering of sages …
… to decide the needs of everyone’s real nature. The workers will live in a village planned for them so they may find themselves in their atmosphere. According to the work they have provided, they will receive coupons with which they will get … [etc.]”
There’s hardly, hardly once in a while the word I uttered! It’s strange, isn’t it? It gives me the precise illustration of what I say and the way it’s received in the brain.
Yes, it clearly feels like a human translation.
It’s useless, you know – it’s not that.
Yes, you didn’t put it like that.
It’s useless – I can’t use this.
This is how ideas are ruined.
Yes, they become flat.
(Mother laughs) All the blood has gone! It’s no good.
It becomes flat, small, and dogmatic.
Dogmatic! It’s absolutely unrecognizable. It’s no good.
I spoke unintentionally, because I had just seen things and it was there – a vision. She happened to be here at that time, so I told her, “Would you like to try? I’ll speak, and if you remember, you’ll write it down.” She was very happy and … No, what’s a bit troublesome is that it never comes back, it’s never the same thing – never. It’s always either a different viewpoint, or a different occasion. So the angle is changed.
This atmosphere or consciousness [of the superman] seems to have an educative activity, because since it came, it has been looking after the education of the body-of the body’s CONSCIOUSNESS – and that’s quite interesting. And this education isn’t something personal at all: it’s the vision of the earth’s evolution, especially concentrated on human evolution. There are no doubt notions of the whole, and with very particular things, quite particular viewpoints, but then, with precise details and with insistence, lasting sometimes an hour on one subject, so as to make deeply understood the cause and the consequences, and the CURVE of evolution.
Its method (in the main, not exclusively), its method consists in awakening a memory of the body that had been quite forgotten and really seemed absolutely gone; it awakens that memory and shows how the circumstance was possible in the general state, how (I’ll give you an example) it’s a residue of the past, and how it’s unacceptable for the future.
This morning’s experience was very curious …. All of a sudden, it awakened the memory of something that took place in my childhood when I was about eight or ten (which I had completely forgotten). On Sundays (I suppose so, or anyway on holidays), I used to go and play with my first cousins, the children of a brother of my father. I would go and play with them. I remember their house, I can still see it. We would usually spend our time playing scenes or enacting a story in tableaux. And today, it showed me something I had really forgotten. There’s a story of “Bluebeard,” isn’t there? (Bluebeard … I forget, I only know what I remembered this morning.) One day, we did a tableau vivant, in several tableaux, with the story of Bluebeard who cut off his wives’ heads …. (To Satprem:) That’s how the story went, isn’t it? … (Laughter) I only remember this morning, I don’t recall the story …. Now, we played in a big room, a sort of enclosed verandah – in Paris, a big long room. We had stood (our playmates were little boys and girls), we had stood a certain number of girls against the wall: we had stuck them to the wall, with their hair strung above their heads (Mother laughs), and we had put a sheet in front to cover the rest of their bodies – the sheet reached down to the floor so that we couldn’t see their bodies, only their heads! … I am saying that because I saw it this morning, otherwise I didn’t remember in the least. I saw this scene, I saw the memory of that room and how it was all arranged. And at the same time there came … You see, we found it quite natural, just “a story” we had read; I remembered my impression at the time: there was no sense of horror! We didn’t find it “monstrous” (laughing), we were having great fun! … So the experience came, and it remained for OVER AN HOUR to make me understand very deeply where this memory came from, how it acted and why we were in that state. And all of it not at all from a personal standpoint, not at all: from the general standpoint of the earth and humanity in general. It was exceedingly interesting! And then, at the same time, a vision showing how, with what swift movement, the universal consciousness moves (arrowlike gesture) in a progression towards the Divine – the TRUE Divine, I mean, not religions, of course-towards the TRUE Divine … through all that. And with the consciousness of the WHOLE – the whole – and nuances (Sade and all that line), from the highest to the lowest. For one hour I saw a whole stage of humanity – a stage towards the late 1800s, the second half of the 1800s – and how it moved on and progressed (gesture like a great curve). And that’s … I have no words or capacity to describe it, but it’s extraordinarily interesting. The vision of the human collectivity on earth, with all its stages, gradations, nuances, and how it all followed a movement … (same arrowlike gesture). And this story (“story” … this VISION, rather, because it wasn’t a story: I didn’t see what we said or anything, only the vision of what we did), this story came as the illustration of a certain state of mind of those times, and how children were given stories of that kind to read – we found it quite natural! (Mother laughs) And those things are so dreadful.
As soon as I am not busy talking or listening to people or doing a work, it goes on and on: certain “samples,” as it were, of this body’s life are taken up again, and through those samples, the whole is shown. A wonderful education! Never, never does any human education as it’s conceived resemble this, because it’s a vision of the whole, in which everything hangs together; you’re shown everything together.
It can’t be said. At least I can’t say it – I can’t, this body is incapable of formulating it methodically and clearly. But as far as learning is concerned, it’s certainly learning!
At the same time, that gives the true notion … This morning (as if to give reference points), certain questions of religion were also mixing in: of religions, religious people from different religions, attitudes in religions. All that came with the vision of the whole and a total absence of all personal reactions (when it saw them, the seeing consciousness had no personal reactions; for instance, the reaction of one religion towards another, of one creed towards another, of one so-called system of knowledge towards another, and so on: all those reactions and conflicts found in the human mind), it was seen like this (dominating gesture, as if above a becalmed sea), it was all seen TOGETHER, and all on the same plane; on a same plane which is like a mental zone and has absolutely nothing to do with the Truth – it’s an unbelievable camouflaging of the Truth. The so-called “truths” for which men have fought against each other, have died, have destroyed with all human passions: an almost ridiculous camouflaging of the Truth.
All religions seen like that in the whole, and in their history.
And since it isn’t thought, of course – it’s SEEN, it’s a vision, a vision seen in the consciousness – one would have to say ten words at the same time. It’s impossible to express, impossible to describe.
If one starts describing one thing after another, it no longer makes sense.
This morning, it went on for three hours like that. In reality, it stopped only when I started seeing people, because naturally … And in the night it’s the same thing, it goes on. It’s like a supereducation of the body, of the body’s CONSCIOUSNESS, with illustrations. This story I’ve told of Bluebeard, it’s like an illustration to make the body understand clearly, because it then FELT the state of consciousness it was in at the time. And having felt that, it understood – it was as if put in front of an abyss. It said, “How?! …” An abyss of unconsciousness. And it’s very general. So then, there was the vision of the past, the vision of the present condition, and a beginning of … (gesture like a curve forward), the DIRECTION in which we’re moving, and a sort of opening … (gesture in the distance). A vision ahead, far ahead, of the Harmony, here, which will manifest.
But then, at a certain point, the body wondered, “Who … or what is it that takes pleasure in this immense unfolding … which started with something so obscure and moves towards something so luminous?” All of a sudden, the body wondered, “Why?” And then … (Mother holds her hands open upward, in suspense) there was no answer … In fact, it was made to feel, “Not yet. You aren’t yet ready, not yet. You can’t understand.”
But the nature of the thing is so special! … It has extraordinary precision, and such intensity that the body’s whole attention is turned towards that, but it can’t communicate yet …. Unless it comes quite naturally with this [superman] consciousness acting – acting in others, for some detail or other, for one thing or other (that is to say, people themselves don’t know, everyone isn’t aware of the whole action, he is aware only according to the development of his consciousness). The consciousness is very clearly active on a large scale, and with results that are quite surprising and look, when seen in isolation, like miracles (small miracles, but they look like miracles). So I have wondered if it was going to make others capable of the same inner work? … The hindrance in most people is mental activity – truly, this body is infinitely grateful that it has been liberated from the mental presence so it may be ENTIRELY under the influence of this Consciousness, without this whole accumulated farrago of so-called knowledge people have …. It’s spontaneous, natural, unsophisticated, very, very simple, and almost childlike in its simplicity. And that [the mind’s disappearance] is a great advantage. At this speed, things can go very fast – one learns a hundred, two hundred things AT THE SAME TIME, you understand, all of it seen at once. This morning, it was particularly intense.
But if it’s described as it can be described, with words following each other, it becomes like F.’s text on Auroville: flat, artificial, devoid of life.
For the moment, the human means are inadequate. What will the superhuman means be? I don’t know. But the human means are inadequate.
Strange, isn’t it? It’s something that happened … probably more than eighty years ago (eighty-two or three or four), yet it was intense, present, living, so extraordinary that if even now I look at it, I SEE: I see the scene so clearly, the apartment, the people, the setting, everything …. It didn’t come from within: it was shown to me (gesture of something imposing itself), and it’s while seeing it that suddenly I said within me, “Hello, but I lived this!” It was stored somewhere (gesture in the background), stored as you would keep a collection of memories for educational purposes – it’s far more precise, complete, concrete than any book or anything people say with so many words.
That’s what I am afraid of: that people will make dogmas with the creation of Auroville …. I never said anything like that to F, but that’s what it has become in her head! Even what one writes, even if we publish what I’ve said in the Bulletin, when it enters their heads that’s what it becomes.
I am sure that what’s recorded here (Mother points to the tape recorder), if three people listen to it, each one will hear differently – will UNDERSTAND differently. That’s why I am not sure it’s really useful to play these recordings …. Each one goes away with the certainty that he has heard, but then he has understood something else altogether. And above all – above all-what I say is seen here (gesture above), while … (gesture showing that it is heard at ground level) it becomes so stupid, so flat!
Anyway, you’ll see with Nolini, but …
No, Mother, if you feel like that, we can just leave it.
It’s not a feeling, it’s an experience! You know, I wouldn’t like anything better than … In fact, this is my constant impression! “Do as best you can, and the best thing needed will happen, that’s all.” But there is such an awareness of the uncertainty of the effect of things, and of this complexity … It all becomes so mixed and so confused that …
All of life is like that. CIRCUMSTANCES are like that, I am beginning to see that, it’s beginning to … emerge like that, to show itself: honest people look like scoundrels, and scoundrels look like … I don’t know what.
Sri Aurobindo was very, very conscious of this general confusion, and so he didn’t much like … he wanted absolutely no propaganda, but he also didn’t much like attempts to “explain things” to people and make them “understand,” because he very well knew how useless it is. He very, very often said it to me: no propaganda whatsoever, of course, and above all, above all, no attempt to make people understand: the maximum effect one can obtain is the effect of the Consciousness at work in the world (universal gesture), because in everyone it produces the utmost the person can do – the utmost of what he can understand, he understands through the influence of the pressure of the Consciousness. As soon as words intervene, the whole mind makes a mess of it.
Certainly, Sri Aurobindo must have had experiences analogous to the ones I’ve had; now I am absolutely convinced of that. Because people who are full – full – of a complete goodwill, who are under the constant Influence, who make an effort, they are … (gesture at ground level) from another world. So those who don’t put any goodwill into it …
Music is fine.
Because there are no words. Music is fine. I had a vision like that of an auditorium in Auroville, with a grand organ, and someone (whom I am trying to prepare, who can play the organ very well and whom I am trying to prepare inwardly) was playing (I SAW that, I saw it), playing the music of the higher Consciousness. It was a place where all those who wanted to come and listen could do so; some people came from far away, they came in, sat down, listened, and then went away And this music was like a Consciousness coming down and exerting a Pressure on people to make itself understood. It was very beautiful – I hope it will be like that! Much better than words; as soon as one starts speaking (gesture at ground level), it’s no longer that. So there.
Voilà, mon petit, now it’s time.
(to Sujata, after Satprem has left)
All these activities [like the memory from Mother’s childhood] take place between 4 and 7 in the morning, before people start coming.
Notes of Auroville’s architect
1. To build Auroville, do we need a method of working, organization, coordination?
Discipline is necessary to live. To live, the body itself is subject in all its functions to a rigorous discipline. Any slackening of this discipline results in illness.
2. What should the nature of this organization be? In the Present and in the Future.
Organization is a discipline of action, but for Auroville we aspire to go beyond organizations, which are arbitrary and artificial. We want an organization that is the expression of a higher consciousness working for the manifestation of the Truth of the Future.
3. Until we have a common consciousness and the true and correct way of working collectively is in operation, what should we do?
A hierarchical organization gathered round the most enlightened center, submitting itself to a collective discipline.
4. Should we use methods of organization of proven efficiency, but based on human logic and the use of machines?
This is a makeshift to which we should submit ourselves only very provisionally.
5. Should we let the individual initiative manifest freely, personal action be impelled by inspiration and intuition, and turn down any suggestion which the individual concerned does not feel to be good?
To be viable, this would demand that all Auroville workers should be yogis, conscious of the Divine Truth.
6. Has the time come to aspire to, set up or attempt a general organization, or should we wait for the correct attitude and people?
An organization is needed for the work to be done. But the organization itself should be supple and progressive.
7. If the solution is to wait, is it nevertheless necessary to define principles of organization and to prevent the occurrence of an uncontrollable disorder?
All those who want to live and work in Auroville must have:
An integral goodwill, a constant aspiration to know the Truth and submit oneself to it.
A plasticity sufficient to face the demands of the work and a ceaseless will for progress so as to progress forever towards the ultimate Truth.
Finally, a bit of advice:
Be more preoccupied with your own faults than with those of others.
If everyone seriously worked to perfect himself, the perfection of the whole would automatically follow.
February 6, 1969
|Источник: газета "Рыбный Мурман" №117 1969 года|
Цымбалюк александр Федорович, капитан траулера «Запорожье» в 1969 году, рт «Макеевка» в 1971-м
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|преодоление многолетнего разделения в 1969-1970 годах. Завещание Алексия I|
Дело об Американской митрополии (рпц и Православная Церковь Америки) – преодоление многолетнего разделения в 1969-1970 годах
1. /Летопись/Содержание к летописи.doc
1. /archives/Volume 1. Number 1, Apr-Jun 1999/journal1index.pdf
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Руденко валерий Сергеевич, капитан на судах Мурмансельди. С 1969 года – капитан срт «Буревестник». Экипаж успешно работал и тралом,...
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